Reflections

In this process, you remain something of an optimist, is that fair?

Well, I think so. The inputs my office makes should make a difference. That is the basic optimism. Of course, facing every situation, there are some times you feel very desperate, really downtrodden sometimes, of course.

Looking back, what has surprised you in this decade of dealing with world disorders? You were a political scientist trained in international relations.

I suppose the world reality is [that] it is not a rational world; self-interest is a real one; political motivation is a real one; power is a real one. And I think we should not be so naïve as to think we can change the world into heaven so easily.

Any disappointment come to mind as you look back at the period of your tenure?

Well, there are disappointing elements in many of operations we have carried out. I think the fact that we were not able to really help the refugees from Rwanda who fled to Zaire. We lost track of so many lives. That is something that hurts me. I think that is a reality that we have to come to grips with. How better we could have done, I don't know. Or the fact that we were not able to bring back a lot of the minorities to their places of origin in Bosnia. I always think that maybe time is what we need, but time tends to, shall I say, let people forget. And maybe we forget too much. But at the same time, time also solves a lot of wounds, too. There is a lot of hatred in this world, and in overcoming hatred -- in the sense of insecurity -- sometimes you have to forget. So there are things we could not have done. And then the fact that there are so many asylum-seekers coming to industrialized countries, and the doors are getting tighter and tighter: that does worry me.

What can you do about that as a leader of the UNHCR, communicate to the world about the broader implications if the doors are shut?

I think we have to be very clear, not in a judgmental, condescending way but bringing out the realities, persuading and trying to convince the [public of the] importance of really looking after the refugees and the people who are in need of protection.

For you and your colleagues, I guess, the individual case can be quite moving and quite effective in giving you the momentum to go on.

That is what many of my colleagues do -- deal with people. We do deal with people directly. And that is the rewarding part of our job, but also the frustrating part.

Where do you think the UNHCR has been most successful?

In the long run in many, many places. I would like [the public] to know how we have been successfully solving the problems and helping the lives of millions of people. What we would like to do, and one of my colleagues has started this, [is] celebrate the refugees, find out what has happened to them. Get a total picture of how many people were in a refugee situation and how many have found a solution to their fate, and how many are a very, very active and important part of society. I think it must be millions. That is the kind of thing we should bring out to the world more.

Is that kind of information one of the secrets to your surviving in this role that you play in the world?

It is not just because we want to survive, but we want the people to survive better. But these better aspects of the results of our efforts should become better known.

One of the concerns of international relations scholars is the building of norms and values.

How do you think these processes that you've been a part of -- in what ways have they built or are building a new set of norms with regard to international cooperation and dealing with situations of disorder?

I think norms are very important. Standard setting is very important and trying to move societies and human beings in the direction of complying with norms and standards are important. At the same time, my personal view would be much more to develop human beings, communities, persons in a direction that helps them comply with norms. To set up norms and say "you have not achieved the norms" and criticizing is important sometimes, but I would like much more efforts to help people, communities, states to move in that direction. And I think there should be many more efforts directed by people, communities, individuals, and nation states.

What is involved is an international compassion?

Compassion combined with rather cool judgment, I would say. Just one doesn't work.

But the two together?

The two together go a long ways, I think.

If you were advising students planning for their future how they should prepare for the next millennium, what would you tell them about this world of disorder -- how we can move away from it and how they can prepare for it?

Being a former professor, I usually insist that students work hard, study, that is one thing. At the same time, they should not just be studying their subject and thinking about their own careers only, but to reach out. Students are future elites of society and they have to have a sense of the importance of sharing their resources, their wisdom, their opportunities. So I think [there should be] much more [of] an attitude of sharing, and for that it is not bad for students if they had the opportunities to go work in refugee camps or with the slum areas just to know that there are people who are much less fortunate. The students should have that sense too.

What will your organization look like in twenty, thirty years down the road?

I hope my organization will be smaller. More compact, efficient, but maintaining a capacity to move quickly whenever there is a need. There will be people in need of protection and help. There will be refugees, I have a feeling. And we have to be able to cope with it.

Your answer implies that the world will have changed somehow. How will it have changed?

I don't know which way it is going. Right now it seems to be going in the wrong direction because the power structure is lacking. [Normally] there is a power structure of a sort that the powerful can influence the less powerful; it is the influence of the global hegemon. That is lacking now, so everybody is out for himself. It is a disorderly process. I don't know how the power structure is going to reemerge.

Philosophers and academics are always in some way addressing the issue of doing good in the world. That can be a complicated undertaking because as we indicated, the world is not perfect. Do you have any thoughts on the limitations of undertaking humanitarian efforts and the complicated situations in which you find yourself acting?

Oh, I never advocate to do good in the world. I don't think that is the attitude of academics. I think there is a division of work. The result of what you do should contribute to doing things better.

Dr. Ogata, thank you very much for being with us today and giving us a sense of the extraordinary complexities of your work and of the work of your organization. And thank you for joining us for this Conversation with History.