Nemat Shafik Interview: Conversations with History; Institute of International Studies, UC Berkeley
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In one of the articles that you wrote about the Arab world, you concluded by saying "All countries retain the potential power to shape their own future." Is that a philosophy that guides you generally in your work? It sounds like it is very relevant to the story you've told us about the work you're doing and how you came to the work.
Yes. I guess I'm not fatalistic. I actually think that we have a lot of influence over our own destinies. Certainly in my personal life I've experienced that, but I think also in my professional life. I think one of the most remarkable things about the twentieth century is that one has actually seen countries defeat poverty. When Great Britain industrialized, it took them 350 years to double their per capita income. In the twentieth century, countries like Japan, Botswana, Chile, have doubled per capita incomes in a decade, in just ten years. In countries like China, 80 percent of the population lived on less than a dollar a day in the 1960s; today, less than 12 percent do. What we've learned is that eliminating poverty, or at least dramatically reducing poverty, is very possible, and I think it's that hope that guides me in feeling that countries actually do have a lot of control over their destinies, and even countries which people thought would be backwaters such as Hong Kong are able to define a path which is actually quite prosperous.
Another piece of this is that multilateral institutions like the World Bank can play a decisive role in creatively supporting efforts in this regard.
I think that's right. And I think we do that by supporting and being catalytic. I think many people think we're a lot more powerful than we are. We don't run the world and we don't run countries, but we can certainly play an incredibly important role. Part of the reason that Britain took 350 years to double its per capita income was because it was the pioneer in industrialization. Part of the reason Japan, or Chile or Botswana could do it faster was that they were able to access the technology and the knowledge of predecessors. And what we can do by moving knowledge about -- what's the best way to reform your telecommunication system, or what is the latest thinking in terms of education sector reform? By moving that kind of knowledge around the world, we can help countries who are behind catch up much more quickly. In some ways that's the most powerful role we play.
It seems that individuals like yourself, who come from a country and still identify with it, but have moved beyond it, so to speak, play an important role. You inform the international agenda, in a way, by identifying with your origins. Is that a fair statement?
It's true. That image of straddling fences has been a common theme in my life, and being able to understand the perspective of people who are in countries that are not as well off helps a lot in informing my judgments about the work we do at the World Bank.
If students see this interview, how would you advise them to prepare for a future in which international organizations like the World Bank are going to be important, and a world in which nation states are not going to go away?
It's a good question. I think we're in a very funny period, because with the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Cold War system, the world is struggling to define a global governance structure. We have a world economy, we don't have a world government, and we probably won't have a world government. Instead what we have is a kind of hodgepodge of international institutions like the World Bank, and also the World Trade Organization, all focused on different parts of the world economy. But we also have very powerful civil society-- organizations which are operating at the global scale, be it Greenpeace or the international labor unions who are also operating and shaping the rules of the international game. I guess I would tell a student to be prepared for a messy world. There won't be simple systems wherein, like the UN, you have one country, one vote; nation states are represented; and that's the system which runs the world. It's going to be a world where there will be nation states who are players, international organizations that are players, civil society groups and NGOs and also business associations and voluntary associations of networks that will play a critical role in shaping the future of the world.
Dr. Shafik, I regret to say that our time has run out, but thank you very much for joining us for this very interesting conversation about the World Bank and its role in a world that is really changing quite a bit. Thank you.
Thank you.
And thank you very much for joining us for this Conversation with History.
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