Conclusions

Long term, do you envision the possibility that the international tribunal would become a permanent institution?

Well it couldn't, but it's certainly, I hope, paving the way for one. The United Nations is hard at work drafting a treaty and possibly calling an international meeting this year or next to consider that treaty, to set up an international court. But there can be no question of this tribunal becoming a permanent court. A permanent court would have to be set up in a very different way.

Relate this experience that you've had with the International Tribunal to your experience in South Africa. What things stand out in your mind?

What stands out in my mind is the importance, in any situation like this, of consulting people, listening to advisors. I think in my job in South Africa and in The Hague and in Arusha [Tanzania] for the Rwanda Tribunal, that stands out. If you want people to cooperate, and you can't do these things without cooperation, you need to consult people and to convince them where their own self-interest lies. I think that's a very important lesson I've learned.

As you've gone through all of this evidence, and without asking you to bias yourself, has your view of the nature of man changed as you've done this work at the International Tribunal?

Well, ironically, I have more optimism and more respect for humanity than I had before. And it is ironic because I've been investigating some of man's worst deeds to fellow men and women. But I really learned, and this is the importance too of doing justice and exposing the truth, is to avoid collective guilt. I've learned that we're dealing with criminals, international criminals who order murders and rapes and ethnic cleansing.

And use the instruments of government.

It's the heart of criminality. But fortunately the number of evil people in the world, I have no doubt, is a small percentage. The majority of the people are decent, law-abiding people who want the ordinary things that you and I want.

August, 1996; Arusha, Tanzania: Goldman as Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda, with the president of the tribunal and other officials.

The media and the photojournalists and the reporters were very important in bringing this to the attention of the world, and also in your process of gathering evidence. How do you account for the relative indifference of the international community once the pictures and the stories were out there?

Well it's really everybody's self interest. Governments are interested in their politics. If you read the newspapers of every country of the world you'll read on the front pages local stories. Even in today's New York Times there are important international stories, but the main stories are local stories which affect people in this country. And that's human nature. I don't say it in any sense critically. But this explains that indifference and really the double standards that exist. What governments would not countenance for a second in their country, they do countenance because it happens in the international community outside of their immediate area of concern.

What would you tell students is the best way to prepare for the kind of work that you have done and that they might anticipate doing?

I think that obviously one has to have the technical knowledge. One has to learn about human rights law, international human rights law, in the case of war crimes the law of war, international humanitarian law. So that goes without saying. But for the rest really it's life experience in whatever field. In my field it's been in the legal area, but I've spoken frequently with great admiration for what Physicians for Human Rights manages to achieve, their tremendous, brave work and unbelievable moral commitment to go into dangerous situations and uncover mass graves. June 1997: Goldstone receiving an honorary doctorate at the University of Glasgow. Why should they do it in far-off countries? They do it because of their humanity and their recognition that crimes against humanity are what they are called. They're crimes against all of humanity and we all should have an interest in trying to see that this is stopped.

One final question. In listening to your discussion of the work you've done in South Africa and in the International Tribunal, I hear a very Büberian philosophical underpinning, that is, to gather the evidence, to listen, to let people tell their story of what has happened to them and then to see that justice is done. Is that a fair summation?

It's a very fair, and it's a very appropriate summary because one of the most important areas is to let people talk, because they're talking not only for themselves but for other people in their position. And then I've seen again and again that that is the beginning, truly, of the healing process.

Justice Goldstone, thank you very much for taking this time and talking with us about your life and the important events that you've participated in.

Thank you very much.

And thank YOU very much for joining us for this "Conversation with History."

To the Conversations page.