| Photo by Jane Scherr |
Anita Gradin Interview: Conversations with History; Institute of International Studies, UC Berkeley
| Photo by Jane Scherr |
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Do you think it was easier for you as a woman to enter politics because you were in a progressive country like Sweden?
I think what was good or is still in the Swedish system is that I had elderly women who supported me -- my mentors -- and said, "We will support you. We know that you are interested and we need you to follow our work." I've done the same.
So it's a tradition?
It is a tradition, which is very important. I mean, men have always this.
What were some of the obstacles you encountered as a woman in politics?
First of all, it was all these practical things. You have to function and have the concrete possibilities to be able to work, not only in the labor market end but also to have the possibilities. But, of course, it was also that in the parties there was discrimination. We got the right to vote in '21, but it took until the end of the forties until we had the first woman minister. And the Prime Minister could say, "Well, it's enough with one, then." And the trade unions were not that supportive of women either, where we were for cooking coffee or serving.
Is it that men were threatened, or they didn't get the problem, they didn't understand? "Well you couldn't be there because you were taking care of the children"? Or you weren't seen as a co-equal? What do you think it was?
I think it was, "Well, it's okay if you are in politics, but you have to take your responsibility as a mother and as a parent." Many women in the sixties were fighting for the taxation service and for the right to work, and we were looked upon as, "negative feminists." I remember one sentence once, a man said, "Yes, you were very good, but we would never marry somebody like you."
You say in a recent speech, "If women are to gain a real influence over their own lives, women must
be more active in politics."
Yes.
That's where you can change things.
True, because questions like I have told you, they were not changed until there were more women in politics. And also cross-party work on issues like taxation, like the right to abortion, to family planning, and questions like violence in the family and changing the law -- how to deal with all these questions.
I believe you're suggesting in some of your writings that, first, women have to be at the table, but then they have to organize to increase public education about exactly what the issue is. Was it hard to enlighten other women about these issues? I know it was hard to enlighten the men, but what about other women who were not yet mobilized?
Yes, of course. And having been, in the lead, at the head of some women's' organizations, sometimes women came and said, "I can't go on with this anymore." And when you then started to interview, they had problems at home, or they had to choose, many of them, between going on being active or having peace at home, because they were threatened with divorce and so on.
You've emphasized the importance of organization, and you identify three reasons why political organizing is important.
You say, one, it gets women into the party; two, you're then a pressure group within the party to affect public opinion and affect the party; and, finally, it's sharing other experiences with other women.
Exactly. Yes, that's my experience, that it's strong women's' organizations that make the difference. In countries where you have that, then you also have more women in politics, and they are able to influence. And that's not only the experience I have from Sweden. It's also in international organizations or in the European Union.
I get the sense, as I look at your work both at the national level and at the international level, that one element of what you're doing is showing that what are perceived as very little things are actually very big things. And what comes to mind here is that in recent days, because of an international tribunal's decision, for the first time, the rape of women in wartime has been declared a crime against humanity. In the Bosnian War, three men have been given long sentences for that crime.
Exactly.
It's surprising that that hasn't been [considered] a war crime before. It's obviously a very important thing and a very big thing, but it's not [been pursued] because, in some sense, people perceived it as a little thing.
If you look into it, it took a very long time for society to accept that violence at home could be taken to the courts. It was looked upon as a private affair.
After the war, nobody talked about women and all this. And in the Convention on Refugees, men who were tortured and so on, they get the status of refugees [but not specifically women who were raped]. But, finally, now, thanks to this court decision ... This is, to me, a power game. Finally, we've got [this recognition]
It's one thing to have the legal rights -- they were fought for and found. Then you have the support, so you could choose what to do in society. If you want to be a housewife or somebody on the labor market or develop your own interest, now, we are finally coming to it. Because, of course, a lot of men feel threatened now, because we can decide when we would like to have a baby or not. If you look at history, this was the way of controlling from the male society. And it's still true in many cultures. But now, we can do this. And of course, when it's a question of decision-making, partnership, then it's quite a different story -- how you live together.
So in the end, when will men and women truly be equal? We've, obviously, changed some of the laws -- not all of the laws. There's more social support for the equality, but we're not yet there.
No, we're not.
Does it mean that men and women's responsibility in the home has to be equal?
Yes.
I noticed in one of the things you wrote that women, for example, in Sweden, still work mostly part-time.
Yes, particularly when you have children. It's a big group that works part-time. They have, still, the most responsibility at home. Even that you can see in many, many groups. My daughter and her husband, he has been home taking care of the babies because now you can share the parental leave and so on. But it's not happening in all families. It's very important to talk about the men's role, that has been done too little, and give them support, because they are also discriminated [against] by their friends.
That is, if they are supportive of women, if they share the responsibility? So as a Parliamentarian, somebody who works her constituencies, who is both educating and listening, what do you think is the key that will turn this around so that women actually get real equality? In other words, will it be easier with the younger generations?
I think so, because that's what I'm seeing around me, as I look at my daughter's generation, that things are easier. And it's easier in intellectual groups today. I have seen letters to editors from building workers, metal workers, showing that they have been discriminated in their group because they wanted to take their parental leave. That's why you have to talk about men and what is done. These men's groups that are being established, where they have talks, support each other, like we, also, did -- this is a good sign.
Countries like Sweden are probably more advanced than countries like the United States, but both much more advanced than the underdeveloped parts of the world.
And one sees that in places like in the aftermath of the fall of communism or in the chaos in the Balkans, it's really women who bear a greater proportion of the misery, the suffering. Talk a little about that, and what can be done about that in international activities.
Yes. What is happening in the Eastern and Central European countries that are now knocking at the door to become members of the European Union, they are transforming their command economy to a market economy. It's very tough -- and done without a social dimension, I would say. It means that particularly women and children are marginalized. One of the consequences is that the pedophiles have got a new market. They don't just go to Thailand or to the Philippines anymore. They go to Riga, they go to these areas. And you have a lot of young girls and women who are sex slaves; who are lured or taken to brothels, but you'll also find them here in the United States. We know that these organized crime traffickers are taking particularly Russian women.
As far as I have understood in my cooperation with the American
administration and the Coalition against Trafficking, this is now something going on all over the world. And it involves billions and billions of dollars, as much as in the drug trafficking.
And at the [European] Commission, this was one of the things that concerned you, as you focused on immigration?
Yes.
It's one of the issues that have to be addressed?
I'm proud that I was able to put this on the political agenda. So now, there is concern about these issues, and it is important now to convince the new governments in the Eastern and Central European countries that this also has to be a priority for them. It's not only to transform industry, to privatize it, it's also a question now of social responsibility. And there, they have many men politicians. There are very few women, two or three percent in their new government. So this is something they have to know about.
You used the phrase right now, which applies to everything which we've discussed, which is, "putting the item on the agenda." As a Parliamentarian, as a commissioner, as a women's rights activist, what is key there? Is it both the heart and the mind, both giving an explanation of what's going on, and then moving people and resonating in their own feelings about the issue?
Yes. It is that you have made the awareness. Everybody accepts, now, "Yes, this is something we have to deal with." But you also have to finally come to the point where you do some concrete things in legislation, in prevention, in how to work together internationally, as we're talking about trafficking. So you can go from recognizing something to act. That's what I mean.
Next page: Conclusion
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