Henri Peretz Interview: Conversations with History; Institute of International Studies, UC Berkeley
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Tell me a little about your student population. In your university you have a substantial number of immigrants. What insights do you draw about that student population and how it's changing?
To be simple, but it's necessary to say, Paris has thirteen state universities; we are a state university. Mine is situated in the northeast of Paris, a working-class and ethnic neighborhood. Most of our students, especially undergrad, come from this part of France. It's a very tough département [county] with a lot of delinquency, violence. Very difficult. On the campus, I have not seen anything myself; I've never experienced anything. A large part of the students come from ethnic groups, which means a large part from Maghreb, their parents or grandfather came to France in the fifties or seventies. Most of them come from Algeria and Morocco. Less Tunisia; Tunisia is richer. So, it's a large part of the students. A large part of the students also come from the West Indies, les Antilles Françaises, Martinique. We have less and less students coming from Africa, from the former colonies.
So, this affects [our teaching] because you have to [understand] that you are going to talk before students coming from all these regions. So you make some kind of statement about your neutrality. You say, "I am going to deal with a problem. I am not going to judge." It's the same thing concerning the problem of religion, because you never know. For instance, in one my classes just now, that I will see again next Thursday, I have a girl dressed in a Muslim traditional way. She doesn't hide her face -- if she would have done this, I would not accept. So, we have some with Jewish, some with a cross. I am absolutely neutral. But I have to be aware of the fact that most students are not used to talking with a teacher about that. When you address major problems in French history, of course, you bump into the separation of state and church in France and things that like. And many of the students are very shy. They don't want to collect that history from their parents. And after the movie, Memoires d'immigres, of after talking with them, they do that.
What you can you tell us about the extent to which these immigrant populations, especially the students from the Maghreb, deal with the problem of navigating between tradition, their immigrant backgrounds, and modernity as it's presented by the French culture?
They have their own values. Something is striking, and I think this is one of the major events in the world, maybe, and this is the role of music, because their music is now a feature of the French culture. One of the things you can see from students is how music is important: in France -- we have this Muslim music.
They oppose some rules now, and this is very important. On the other side, what has struck me is that they do not have any idea of the history of the country they've come from. When you think about Algeria, which is a major problem in France, still, Algeria has a civil war. So, you are very aware that it's more a dream about a country about which they don't know a lot, the real life of the country. Because if they go back to the country, for them it would be horrible.
For instance, there is no sign of reaction here to the events of 9/11. Nothing happened on my campus, nothing. Of course, they are more focused on the Palestinian problem. They are very focused on the Palestinian problem. You have a lot of small committees, demonstrations -- never violent -- but the problem that interests them more is the Palestinian problem, not the Maghreb itself.
Before we talk about their reaction to the Palestinian problem, let's go back a minute. You're saying that in navigating where they come from and their family's history and what French society and culture is presenting, music is a very important integrating force on the one hand, but on the other hand, they don't know as much about their past, their history and so on. So an assertion of a traditional identity is problematic.
I would say there is a barrier between their family and the university. They are two different worlds. Of course they use the term identity. But, being a sociologist, when I ask them to go into detail ... pfff! What does it mean? It's a very catch-all word. They use it very much. Even the other, so-called French use it. But when you go into detail, it's some kind of belief, you see. They don't feel very attached to the country. A few of them go for vacation in Algeria or Morocco, but very few of them.
The [problem] is the relation with their parents, because the gap between the experience of their parents and [their role as] a student is a major thing. They can't talk about school with their parents. I know some colleagues who are teaching in high school. It's an amazing experience for those parents when they have to go to committees, because they are shy. So, one of the main things in the gap is the different experience. Most students can think about their identity, their so-called identity, but it goes back to their parents, and there is such a gap between their parents and them. Their private lives, the religion, the sex -- most of our students are girls, and you have the contrast between the ones dressed very up-to-date and very attractive, and few of them are dressed [traditionally]. To be honest, it's increasing.
Traditional dress is increasing?
Yes, I see this now.
The French are always complaining about the dominance and the perversion of French culture by America and Madison Avenue and Hollywood and so on. I'm curious. Do these immigrants manifest those kinds of attitudes toward French culture? In other words, do they feel about French culture the way the French feel about American culture?
No, I would say, no. To be honest, simple. I give this class on consumption. My students are required to write a diary of the way they are dressed. When they start thinking about the way they are dressed, and they are dressed as your students, more or less, they are dressed in an American way. What you see with them, concretely, is the gap between what we think and what we do. You see that in many fields -- one world.
I don't see any very violent reaction against [French culture]. If it's against it, it's against the school, because for them, maybe -- I'm thinking about it now -- maybe school became the major experience of the French culture. So, they have a lot of trouble in high school in France, like here. Lot of trouble. Violence, rebellion, problems against teachers in high school, more and more. This is maybe the site of the rebellion, the teacher, the culture. I'm imagining. For instance, the teacher in high school supposed that you are always interested in the French tragedy: Racine, Corneille. But now, a lot of people don't care. And there is a reaction against this.
You mentioned their concern about the Palestinian issues. We're generalizing here, but it's interesting because this is all becoming central to French politics. Talk a little about that. Is there a vicarious identification with the plight of the Palestinians? What's going on there?
I think that for young adolescents, there is always this ethical moment, as I had myself. The most obvious thing for them, now, is Palestine. It's linked. I'm going to be cautious. Some students live in suburbs with a high Jewish community, and the Jewish community is richer than they are. There is a small town north, not far from where we are, called Sarcelles, where you have a very powerful Jewish community [of] people who came in the sixties from North Africa. And they are the rich people. So, the contact is sometimes very tough. Especially if you have another community ... I use "community," but we don't use this in France; it's more common here.
I think that they see the Palestine problem as the major issue. It is unfair, for them. Especially if they have some religious beliefs. But, after the events of September, I did not see any reaction. After the events of the occupied territory by the Israeli, yes there is a reaction. But, it's never violent. They have committees, they want to send money. But, of course, if you come to the event, you see that some, not so many, but I'm struck, some Muslim French were involved in major events, Afghanistan. So, you have this world outside the campus of religion.
You're talking involved in what sense? You mean protests about ...
No, I mean involved in the event.
Actually in the Taliban, you mean?
Right.
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