Henri Peretz Interview: Conversations with History; Institute of International Studies, UC Berkeley
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Help us understand what impact these immigrant communities are having on the dynamic of French politics. The world was taken aback by your recent elections in France where Le Pen was a finalist in the race. Help us understand what is going on there. Obviously the left is divided, which is a big part of the problem. But there's something also going on related to people's dissatisfaction with the problem of crime. How do these immigrant communities fit in to this picture?
Well, you asked several questions.
I have a tendency to do that.
Of course, violence takes place in suburbs and in small towns where there is a large number of immigrants, especially young people. People who are not interested in school, unemployed, and don't believe in competition, I think it's a major thing. School is competitive, and I think they don't believe in this kind of competition. So, it has not the scale of importance as what you have here in this country, from what I know. So you have poor white people, to make a comparison, and those people who live in suburbs, in bad housing, many of them are unemployed. Many of them think that the government doesn't take care of them, and they live in housing projects where the stores are closed. Those people are really unhappy.
A large part -- I'm going to the second question, more or less -- a large part of the people used to vote for the communist party. They don't vote anymore for the communist party; they vote for the extreme right, now. I think the mistake would be to think that the people who vote for Le Pen are fascists. He is, obviously. What he says, his ideas are fascist, fascist tradition. But the people who vote for him, I would say 50 percent of them are not fascist, but they have a daily experience of violence. They don't see the police anymore, they don't see the administration. One of the main things about France, I would say, is a lot of people are against the state, but actually they expect everything from the state. This is really a major thing.
I see, a love/hate relationship.
Yes. So, I don't know if I answered.
You did. So then, let's talk about the other part of this equation. The left, in addition to being divided, doesn't really have a program to address these concerns. Or appears not to have a program.
The left is divided into two different parts. We have a very strange country. Imagine a country with three and a half Trotskyisk candidates. The extreme left believes in revolution, believes that the only reason of violence is unemployment. So, they don't have any solution. I mean, just try to do things, with some kind of new policy, with politics of renovating. But it didn't work, it's not enough. So the left loses, because also they are in office since '81 almost. It's not that Le Pen had gained a lot of votes. It's more, as you say yourself, that the left was divided. And also because the French candidate Jospin was not good, very rigid, and made many mistakes. But, you see the reaction after. I was marching on May 1. It was amazing.
In protest of the outcome.
Yes.
Millions of people were ...
What we say was a million and a half. Which is, in our country of 60 million, not bad.
Now, let's talk about this European experiment, that is, France being part of this whole process of the uniting of Europe. How does that affect these trends visible in the domestic politics? Is the uniting of Europe universally popular in France?
No.
No. And is there also a reaction to that process?
Yes, you are absolutely right. It's a reaction. Because this divides the country in two. You have [people who can] travel, can use Euros everywhere, are very happy, are middle class, upper middle class, enjoy going in all countries and working with foreigners. But on the opposite, a large part of the population thinks it's an obstacle, because will be slowly decided in Bruxelles by bureaucrats. People are afraid of this.
I would say that the only chance for Europe is [a unified] Europe. But we need some kind of political power, and a very clear policy. In all countries -- for instance, they vote tomorrow in the Netherlands, and they are going to vote in Denmark, they are going to vote in Germany --the extreme right exploits this thing, obviously. It's a kind of nationalism. I think this is also an explanation of the vote for Le Pen. And not only for Le Pen, but the extreme left also. This is a major thing [which] divides a country, and all countries in Europe.
What about French foreign policy in all this? Are the voters indifferent to French foreign policy these days or are they supportive of it?
The French policy concerning the Middle East, which is maybe the major issue in [the past], was always very ambiguous. A large part of the country is for Israel, but the policy in the government is for Arab countries, which means, I think, that the French people think that Palestine deserves a state. Of course, Israel is going to be endangered, but the major fact [is that] people are [hoping for] peace, which is not the case now. Since DeGaulle, the French were favorable to the Arabs, I would say. And now toward the Palestinians.
But this doesn't impinge on the domestic politics? These domestic issues that we've just discussed, the support for Le Pen, the concern about crime, the concern about the uniting of Europe; foreign policy is not on the table in these debates?
Europe, yes. Middle East, I would say no. Europe, yes. Because we had a referendum a few years ago and it was like this. But, indirectly, the problem of the Middle East and the events here affected the people because it was a new expression of violence. The French TV during the campaign -- the campaign was very dull -- but every night the French TV would show some violent problem. I think about that. I think maybe for the first time, you could see the influence of the media on the vote. Why? First, because the media was telling, on the basis of the survey, that the second term would be between Jospin and Chirac. This is a very good example of how a rumor affected the behavior of everybody. People said, "Oh, I can go on vacation, I don't vote, there is no problem."
I see. So the prediction that there would be a runoff between Chirac and Jospin led to voter apathy.
I'm sure. And I think it was a false [prediction]. For social scientists, it's a marvelous example of the media manipulating their opinion.
But you're also suggesting that the portrayal of violence as a central issue may have heated up ...
Those two things, yes. We have not as many [television] channels as you have. Most popular are channel one, channel two and channel three. And it was obvious, every night. Then there was a competition. And people were not responsible, were not aware of this.
You are a person who studied quite a bit of the processes of globalization. You've done a lot of work on tourism and so on. I'm curious how you think the events of 9/11 will set back this worldwide integration that we're witnessing culturally and in other ways -- travel and so on. Do you think there will be long-term setback for these processes of global integration, or do you think that this is just a passing phase?
I will take the French view. The reaction in France was double, and still is double. To be honest and clear, people say, "It can happen there also, obviously." The second reaction was [to be] very sad.
Globalization means to be close to the United States, and obviously France has completely changed in that feeling. People would travel a lot more than ever, because France, I don't know if you know this, but France is the first tourist country in the world, 60 million a year. But on the other hand, more and more French people go abroad. They have some money, they can travel cheap. People can have some very abstract thoughts against globalization, and their life is the opposite. They improve, they experience this globalization in everyday life. Clothes. It's really amazing how people are clothed everywhere the same way now. And this is in every turn of life. Watching TV and going to museums and tourist [attractions]. I was in New York last week, and I was amazed how many French people were in the streets, speaking English now, shopping on Broadway. But this concerns a part of the country, the rich part of the country.
Globalization is very applicable to the middle class, but France is not only middle class. We have poor people in France. And those people are afraid.
Afraid of ... ?
Afraid that the state can't protect them.
In terms of your student populations, though, you're suggesting that they really are globalized in a way that other parts of the population are not.
Yes, my students. I can say that my class, a class of fifty students, for instance, is divided. Maybe half of them are immigrants, second generation. But this is the explanation, because my university is located in the département -- we say département; the county, you'd say here -- where immigrants now are very numerous. So, you have second generation, you have more and more foreigners coming from East Europe, speaking perfect French, coming from China, Taiwan, Japan, Korea. So more and more you teach in a globalized situation. Your class is not this closed world, you see. I talk to them ... for example, one of my classes is [taught in] English; also, I push them to look on the web, and things like that. But [whether] this will affect specifically their life or not, I don't know. But obviously, the atmosphere is changing.
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