| Photo by Jane Scherr |
Ira Lapidus Interview: Conversations with History; Institute of International Studies, UC Berkeley
| Photo by Jane Scherr |
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Islam is a complex universe, both through time and history, and then at any particular moment in time.
Absolutely. The diversity of it and the differences among people and their beliefs, their lifestyles, and their politics is something we don't grasp enough of.
Let's try to get a handle on all of this and what a historian might help us understand about Islam. What are the essential features of the Islamic belief system? Could you identify that for us?
Oh, yes. They're actually very familiar. The beliefs that there is one God, who created the world, who put human beings in the world, who commanded them to act righteously and to behave according to His laws, who is going to judge them -- the Day of Judgment -- and either reward them with heaven, or punish them in hell. It's the same belief system in its fundamental outline as the Judeo-Christian system. But it follows with the idea that the Koran is God's final revelation, and Muhammad the last prophet. God, once again, gives human beings a chance to get it right. It's also fundamental to Islam is that it creates a sense of brotherhood, a sense of community, which is very strong among Muslims, and is the basis of political loyalty.
Tell us a little about Muhammad. He was many things -- a prophet, a warrior, and a statesman.
Yes. He began his life, his career, as a seeker. He used to go out into the desert mountains for silent vigils, and it was in these vigils that he had the first revelations. The years in Mecca were years of preaching, preaching the imminence of the last judgment and calling on people to repent and to be decent to the poor, and to the widows and the orphans. I think that his experience in Mecca, where he was rejected by his own people -- that was his home city -- led him on a different path to seek help in neighboring cities, in Medina, in particular. In Medina, he begins to add a communal and a political dimension to his activities, supporting a community, eventually fighting to defend and to benefit the interest of that community.
That's the precedent that exists all the time. It's that combination of belief in God, moral and ethical behavior, and loyalty to a community that's characteristic of Islam, and other religions, too. It's not unique to Islam by any means.
How do you account for the universal appeal of Islam and its success in spreading across the globe? You've touched on some of those elements. But talk a little more about that.
The way I would look at it is there are certain elements that are universally appealing, and the critical one is that it creates a sense of community and brotherhood. When people convert to Islam, they are joining a community. Just as people come to California, when they're newcomers, what do they do? They find a church or a synagogue, or a mosque. They join a community. Islam has that potential all over the world.
It often appeals to people in societies that are disorganized or fragmented -- clan-type societies, tribal-type societies, merchant communities where there are lots of immigrants and newcomers -- because it gives a sense of belonging. That's a crucial factor. And, of course, the belief system itself is extremely appealing to people, that it appeals to all. There's a shared Jewish-Christian-Islamic heritage. It's a way of looking at the world in which people find meaning, and they find the standards of righteous behavior.
Those two elements are general, universal elements, but as Islam spreads in particular historical circumstances, either a conquest sets off the process of conversions, or an Islamic administration, or the establishment of merchant communities. Sometimes it's the activity of missionary preachers. But there's a different historical context, a different moment that starts the process of winning people over to Islam in different parts of the world.
Before we get into that dynamic of how it interacts with these local environments -- obviously it is a diversity of patterns -- I'm curious: does Islam have special appeal to people who are oppressed and in poverty? You mentioned societies that are fragmented or broken. But what about this appeal to, essentially, classes that have not done well because of things that are not necessarily under their control?
It does definitely have that appeal. But it also appeals to middle classes, and it appeals to political elites. So it appeals to different segments of the population for different reasons. Different milieus have a different way of understanding and practicing Islam. So it begins, for example, with a conquering elite, the political elite. The Arab conquerors of the Middle East are at first the Muslims, and then begin conversions among landowners, government officials, soldiers, merchants. Eventually, Islam becomes the religion of poor peoples, oppressed peoples, tribal peoples who resist these political elites in the name of the same religion. So they dispute over which way to interpret that religion; who has the correct understanding of it.
One of the misperceptions that we -- that is, "we," the people in the United States -- may have about Islam is that, because of the present historical circumstances, we see it unidimensionally, we do not see its complexity. But you make very clear in your book, which I have here, this encyclopedic history of Islamic societies, the extent to which Islam interacts with local environments, local societies, and local settings. And, in many ways, is changed by it. And then, in turn, changes those settings; which creates a dynamic that is very different in its results than what we see when we focus, say, for example, on terrorism or political fanatics.
Yes, definitely. Islam is just different in different regions. The on-the-ground practice, if you look at people and how they worship and if you talk to them about what they believe, is different everywhere. It differs by class. It differs by educational level. So today, for example, you find the Muslim purists, the political Muslims, but you also find the liberal Muslims, not only in Europe and America, but Iran, in Egypt, in Pakistan and Indonesia; people who believe that Islam is compatible with contemporary democratic values and has the same commitment to civil rights and human rights. There are people who believe in Islam as a system of strict ritual practice. There are people who believe that Islam is the veneration of saints, and who don't think about these political issues at all, but go to the tomb of a holy man to make a small gift and to pray for God's help as a favor to the holy man. These are very different kinds of religions, but it's all within the framework of Islam.
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