| Photo by Jane Scherr |
Ira Lapidus Interview: Conversations with History; Institute of International Studies, UC Berkeley
| Photo by Jane Scherr |
Page 4 of 7
One matter of interest is the status, the role, the place of women in Islam. Again, in looking at that subject in your book, you expose a much more complicated history and evolution of the status of women than the common perception in the United States is. Help us to understand the complexity of that status, and how it has changed over time.
This is not only complicated, this is a very controversial subject.
Yes, it is.
Even dangerous ... The way I see it, there are certain guidelines, which you kind of know. Generally speaking, Muslim societies are patriarchal societies, and so men are expected to have a dominant position, to have the last say in the family. People commonly think of men as being superior in reason to women. They think of social order as correct if a man dominates his family. But when you get down to the reality of how people actually relate to each other, the differences are enormous, and you see every kind of situation. You see typical patriarchal families. You see nuclear families where a husband and wife are in practice co-equal -- whatever family decisions are made or negotiated, they're discussed between husband and wife. You see families where by force of personality or sometimes by force of family status or riches, in reality the woman dominates the household. If she respects the traditional practice, she doesn't do this in public, but, in fact, she dominates the household. So you see a great spectrum of behavior in real situations, and very diverse possibilities for the distribution of power between men and women, whatever the formal norms of the society.
Now, this is changing in contemporary times. In modern times, it changes because, first, the education of women is becoming a universal value. The more women are educated, the more they demand, in terms of career opportunities, respect, and influence on family matters. This is almost universal. So nowadays, even conservative Muslims, even reformists or revivalist Muslims, make allowance for this reality, favoring the education of women -- or some do. Some favor the education of women, and as much as they will stress the superior prerogatives of men, their real operating model is the nuclear family.
Once you get educated women, people go through the same process we've been through -- the women want careers and work. That is extremely controversial, because conservative Muslims think of that as taking the woman out of the family, subjecting her to temptations and influences that are extrafamilial. And they are still, largely -- not entirely, but largely -- opposed to that. But it changes. Education and the influence of the media are terrifically important forces affecting the status of women today.
You suggest that the veil can have double meanings. Talk a little about that. That it doesn't necessarily just indicate their subjugation within Islamic society.
My main point of view is that there are always multiple situations. It can mean very different things. It can mean the very traditional seclusion of women in the household. Nobody sees their face in the market. They don't go out. They only have women friends. They're cloistered in the family. It can mean that.
It can also mean almost the opposite. For example, in Egypt, which has a very strong Islamic movement, the majority of university women now wear the veil. They wear the veil, it seems to me, as a way of going ahead with their education and careers, making a space in a society of men who hear a certain message from that. The message is, "I'm a serious, professional person. I'm not here to be flirted with or trifled with. I have conservative moral values. And I want to make a career. I'm entitled to a career, and I'm a good woman anyway." It's very functional and it works very well, since so many women, for example, coming to Cairo --men and women -- come from villages and have very conservative families. This reassures the family that a young woman is behaving properly in the city, and they don't have to worry about her.
So the veil, which we associate with tradition, can be a vehicle for modernization, for upward mobility, and for actually bringing modernization.
Yes.
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