Kenneth Kaunda Interview: Conversations with History; Institute of International Studies, UC Berkeley
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As we talk and you reflect on your career, I see and hear very strongly the idealism, a man of principle. But as a leader of a country and an international figure you're also a man of politics. I'm curious, how does one, and have you over time, reconciled these two trajectories? Because they do go in different places, and the challenge is to bring them together. Is it with education? Is it with talking to people, hearing what their concerns are and then trying to move them to a different ground?
Harry, if we approached politics as a dirty game, we are very much on the wrong course because politics is supposed to be an instrument of justice, fair play, good behavior towards your fellow human beings, regardless of color. When I come here and look at you, you look at me, nothing crosses me about your color, absolutely nothing. I ask you as a fellow human being. It can be any situation, Harry. So, once you make that approach to life, you then are prepared to suffer for fighting and ending AIDS. You must do everything possible to fight AIDS, regardless of who are involved. At the moment the hardest hit part of Africa is our region, southern Africa, by AIDS. And I've not stuck my own small country and left others. It's my duty to cross the borders and talk to my brothers and sisters about AIDS. Within the country I must talk to everybody. For example, one day I was working with an American organization. They asked me if I could help by going to get tested for AIDS. I said, of course, yes. So, I went, I got tested and the result was negative. But I said, Harry, even if I had found it positive I would have made that public, and I would have continued to use it to fight AIDS, because this stigma must be destroyed as part of the struggle against AIDS. And at least I'm glad to say they tell me that my participation has helped [overcome] this stigma through their means of effort, but at least we have begun to fight the stigma in a practical manner. So, what I'm saying is in every field we need to accept our role, our role to help human development.
We can't fight AIDS any other way without fighting poverty, first and foremost. We must fight poverty. To defeat AIDS, we must defeat poverty. My appreciation, Harry, of supporters in America, in Europe, for example, less AIDS problems there, these places, because they've fought -- defeated -- poverty. If you look at people who are suffering mainly from AIDS in these countries it's the poorest of the poor. So, we have a duty to fight poverty in all these places. That's why those who invest in Africa must invest -- make profits, all right, it's their right, but as I said earlier, let them think of the people who they found there where they've invested. What are they doing to help?
Some of the people I worked with in the days when I was in government, and before we took over control of the government, were good people. They were white but they understood what we were doing. For example, football is a game which can be used very much to fight AIDS, and we used it that way. These companies formed football teams in their own names. It helped. We can still do that today.
It sounds like you're saying that in this new realm, in this new world, we've moved from empire, end of colonialism, nationalism, national development, now in this globalized world, that we have to have hope and faith and organize people-to-people contacts, that in some ways, just as you're no longer in government, the new playing field is really the NGOs, the people-to-people contact, always linking the vision with real technical people who know how to fix things, whether it's educating the military about AIDS or helping the children who are now not in school but on the streets.
Well analyzed, Harry, well analyzed. That's exactly what my thoughts have been, are, and are going to continue to be, because we have no other way out of our situation today. When we speak of globalization what are we talking about? Globalization means that you understand that our world is one, and there's only one person in that whole world, different colors, all praising God, different tribes, different faiths, and so on. We all must accept our position, and we are all God's children. We know Him, we go to Him through different paths, if you like, but we all are His. Who are we to say he made you white and therefore he was wrong, he made you black, therefore he was wrong, he made you brown, red? Maybe someday he'll make some green, I don't know! They're still be accepted, accepted with my mind, they're human beings, God's children. Once we accept that across anything else, globalization will have meaning. But if we don't accept that, we have no right to play around with globalization.
We have only a few minutes left and I have one question I always like to ask distinguished individuals such as yourself. If students watch this tape and they look at your life, what advice would you give them based on your life, as they prepare for the future?
Nothing better, put into action: love your neighbor as yourself, do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.
On that very positive and moving note, President Kaunda, thank you very much for coming to San Diego to be honored by Project Concern International, and thank you for participating in our program today. It was a great honor.
I'm grateful, Harry. Thank you.
And thank you very much for joining us for this Conversation with History.
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